Feng Shui as Cultural Heritage
Cindy Olnick 00:00
Today on Save As…
Haowen Yu 00:01
It’s not only like letting you know what it’s ahead of you, but also a way to change the nature, to reshapes a nature, to reshape someone’s Feng Shui.
Cindy Olnick 00:18
Welcome to Save As: NextGen Heritage Conservation, an award-winning podcast that glimpses the future of the field through the work of graduate students at the University of Southern California. I’m Cindy Olnick.
Trudi Sandmeier 00:31
And I’m Trudi Sandmeier. So, Cindy.
Cindy Olnick 00:34
Yes, Trudi.
Trudi Sandmeier 00:35
Big news! We now have a new feed on Instagram and Twitter, which is saveasnextgen. We hope to see you all there.
Cindy Olnick 00:44
Yes, please. That is one word at saveasnextgen. Please follow us, connect with us. Let us know what you think.
Trudi Sandmeier 00:53
So, on today’s episode, our producer Willa Seidenberg interviewed one of our recent grads, Haowen Yu, about his thesis topic, which is about Feng Shui. And I have to say when he first proposed this as a thesis topic, I was super excited because it blends this concept of tangible heritage and intangible heritage. Can you think about any building in China without thinking about Feng Shui? Because it’s been a cultural practice for such a long time in China that affects every single aspect of the built environment — where you put a building, how you site a building. It’s about more than just a building, it’s about entire places and communities and where a neighborhood is located, or a city or a village. So, for people who are practicing conservation in China, it seems like it’s an essential thing that you have to think about.
Cindy Olnick 01:45
Yeah, and there’s this modern idea, especially in America, of what Feng Shui is that has to do with arranging spaces. But it is so much more complex than that. It’s nearly 2,000 years old. And it has evolved in so many different ways for many different reasons.
Trudi Sandmeier 02:02
Haowen’s thesis really takes this to the next level, looking at it through the lens of heritage conservation.
Cindy Olnick 02:09
So, you know, I love talking about Los Angeles. But it is so great to get not just out of our own backyard, out of town, but to get global and really start talking about how conservation is done around the world. Let’s hear from Haowen and Willa.
Willa Seidenberg 02:29
Welcome to Save As Haowen. We’re really happy to have you joining us. And I think you are the first international guest that we’ve interviewed on Save As. Haowen is joining us from Chongqing, China. Welcome Haowen.
Haowen Yu 02:44
Thank you very much Willa, I’m very happy to be here.
Willa Seidenberg 02:4
Great to have you here. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to the field of heritage conservation.
Haowen Yu 02:55
Well, I started urban planning in undergraduate in Michigan, and I worked as an architect after I graduated from undergrad. I started having interests in historic buildings, and how different cultures and different societies, different kinds of government having different perspectives, and different ways to preserve or conserve, since I’m always a fan of history and historic places. So, I think this is a good program for me and for my career plan.
Willa Seidenberg 03:37
The name of your thesis is “Examining Feng Shui as Tangible and Intangible Cultural Heritage.” Why did you decide to write about Feng Shui for your thesis?
Haowen Yu 03:50
We always find a separation between material and immaterial heritage. So, material heritage we’re more familiar with, but intangible cultural heritage, which is a slightly newer concept, refers to these cultural traditions, lifestyles, and sometimes even rituals that contains heritage value. Feng Shui has always been a phenomenon in China; sometimes represents a difficult history where Chinese are being colonized and attacked by Western countries. And Feng Shui, unfortunately, represents part of that history. Now it’s getting back its popularity in the society again. So how does a thing from like popular in ancient China to not popular to something that was banned in recent history and then gain its popularity again. I think this kind of transition as a heritage represents its special past and that’s why I’m interested in this topic in the first place.
Willa Seidenberg 05:05
That’s really interesting how it has ebbed and flowed over time. Let’s get to Feng Shui and what it really is. The words are translated as wind and water. Can you briefly describe what is the practice or the essence of Feng Shui?
Haowen Yu 05:27
Well, from my perspective, Feng Shui represents two things. The first thing is an idea or recognition, that environment has a strong impact on the well-being or the luck of a person. And the second thing is Feng Shui is more represented today, that way of knowing and altering the nature, the environment to control or to improve one’s luck or health or well-being.
Willa Seidenberg 06:05
So, the more universal term for this kind of thing is geomancy. It’s defined as the art of arranging sites or buildings so that they’re placed in a location that will bring success. And it seems to me that a lot of different indigenous cultures around the world use that concept in how they build their environments. But is there a way that Feng Shui is different in China?
Haowen Yu 06:32
So when I did research about what you said, geomancy, I find out a similar kind of geomancy or we call land divination exists in many different cultures. In East Asia, it might be Feng Shui, in India, it has a different name, in Islamic world, it has another different name. But I think the unique thing about Feng Shui is that it’s not only a divination, it’s not only like letting you know what’s ahead of you, but also a way to change the nature, to reshape the nature to reshape someone’s Feng Shui to get the result that we want.
Willa Seidenberg 07:16
There’s one term that you use in your thesis that’s really important to the practice of Feng Shui. It’s the term qi. Can you explain what it means?
Haowen Yu 07:27
Qi basically means air or means wind. But philosophers and Chinese historians usually translate it into a more broader perspective, into something like a vital power. So basically, qi represents the vital power that was contained by the environment. That’s fundamentally why Feng Shui works on humans. Because there’s qi embedded in every element of the environment. And by carefully arranging them or planning them, you can get good qi and then brings you power, brings you health, brings you luck, and all that. And the other important concept, what I call a qi induction effect. That basically means because everything in the world contains certain kinds of qi, and all that qi is from a similar origin, so they have effects between each other. That’s why Feng Shui practitioners believe that even [though] you and your parents might be different individuals, but when qi benefits the remains of your parents or grandparents, that still benefits you, because all the qi embedded in you, your parents, the environment are all connected.
Willa Seidenberg 09:01
I think that it was so interesting that you wrote the tomb, which is you know, where an ancestor is buried, that really determines the destiny of the family through the ages.
Haowen Yu 09:14
Yep.
Willa Seidenberg 09:15
I think that is such a wonderful image and thought that we are so connected to the people who came before us in this way. And you largely write that this was a rural practice for many years that got brought to the cities through time. Can you talk a little bit about that progression?
Haowen Yu 09:39
So, in historic China Feng Shui was mostly practiced in rural areas because most places are rural areas in China. But after the industrialization and urbanization, and many fundamental concepts of Feng Shui are reshaped by the change of lifestyle. Today, most people in China or in the world live in concrete buildings and high rises. But in ancient time, Feng Shui was a method that was invented for a lifestyle that you live in a village, a wood house that is only one or two floors high, and you only have one door. Instead of today, you might have one door for humans and one garage door for cars and one door for balcony or backyard.
Willa Seidenberg 10:27
So, it’s not a static practice, it is evolving over time as things go along. And it’s not just a spiritual practice, I mean, there are physical objects that are actually used. Could do talk about what some of those are?
Haowen Yu 10:44
So, the most important tool is a Feng Shui compass. The biggest use of the compass was by Feng Shui practitioners to determine the Feng Shui of a place. Because the theory of Feng Shui was developed throughout time, and many, many other concepts and ideas was added to the theory of Feng Shui, so it added more materials on the compass. So that it’s not only a needle that points to the south or points to the north, but a lot of different rings surrounding the needle that tells the user which direction, at what time and for what kind of person are the best for this place or for this person.
Willa Seidenberg 11:37
Is that based on the environment more? Or is it the environment, and the personality of the person that they’re deciding where things should be located.
Haowen Yu 11:51
So, this is another interesting part of the Feng Shui discourse today, because Feng Shui has evolved for so many years, it gradually developed into different schools. So, one school may focus more only the nature and the physical environment. And some other school may vary throughout time and for different people. So, this place may have a good Feng Shui for you, but not for me. But this place may have good Feng Shui for you this year, by may have a bad Feng Shui for you next year. Today, I think the more popular one is the later one. So, the one that is more specific to a person or a time and contains more details in the calculation.
Willa Seidenberg 12:40
OK, so let’s go from individualized to a bigger topic, which is that China went through a really dramatic political and cultural change during the 20th century. How did that affect the way people thought of Feng Shui?
Haowen Yu 12:57
When the Western influence or the Western colonists first come into China, and they start bringing Western civilizations, Western technologies, that includes utility poles, churches. So one way that they refuse those things is by using the name of Feng Shui that says maybe the cross of the church, and the utility poles have damaged the Feng Shui of a place that may bring them bad luck. Communist government, they want a China with advanced technologies.
Willa Seidenberg 13:34
You write that Feng Shui was considered part of China’s feudal tradition, it basically represented a past before industrialization, and some people even thought of it as superstition. And all that ran counter to modernization.
Haowen Yu 13:54
Yes.
Willa Seidenberg 13:55
Because China is now a world power, is there sort of a loosening in the way the government thinks about practices like Feng Shui?
Haowen Yu 14:08
So, the anti-feudalism was one of the core ideology in [the] Communist government, and because of that part of history, Feng Shui was put in the category of feudal tradition, and a category of non-science. So then [it] was attacked and banned by the government because the government wants to promote something more scientific. After the 1970s and 80s, where the Cultural Revolution ends, many things that was once assumed as feudal tradition, all kinds of religious practice was, the ban was released. And nowadays, because Feng Shui is seen as some kind of cultural heritage, so that brings tolerance to the existence of Feng Shui in China.
Willa Seidenberg 15:02
When did Feng Shui first start to appear in the United States?
Haowen Yu 15:06
The first appearance of Feng Shui might be in the Asian communities where they was brought to the States as a laborer or as some other kind of service providers. But the popularity of Feng Shui in the main society, or the name of Feng Shui, was known by more people was, I think, in the 20th century. People start to realize how Asian communities and Asian, especially businessmen, rely [on] or trust Feng Shui. And then this kind of cultural phenomena has spread out into different communities. And other very important point, the influence of the new cultural movement. The new cultural movement firstly took place in [the] Western world in the 1970s, where people start to do some kind of cross-culture reference on the spiritual world. If we collect ancient thoughts and ideas from China, and India, and Egypt, and Greece, and many other places in the world, and we combine them together, we might find out a good way, have some kind of spiritual practices. That’s actually one of the source of many diverse cultural phenomenon that is popular today. Feng Shui is one of them, yoga might be one of them, re-invented in a way that many of its Chinese-specific concept was replaced by a more universal kind of tool.
Willa Seidenberg 16:52
So, I think what you’re saying is that, given that the United States is such a melting pot, we have so many different people here, and I would say, given the fact that we are now much more of a global society, that we have been influenced by some of these practices in countries like China and India, as you point out, and we sort of take them and meld them and make them a little bit more useful to our situation here in the United States. Is that what you’re saying?
Haowen Yu 17:29
Yeah, that’s why I connect Feng Shui with the new cultural movements.
Willa Seidenberg 17:35
And the new cultural movement that you’re speaking about, I think we might know it better as the New Age Movement.
Haowen Yu 17:42
Of course, yeah.
Willa Seidenberg 17:43
I love this part in your thesis where you talked about a former president, and how he decided to use Feng Shui in one of his buildings.
Haowen Yu. 17:56
Yeah, so back when President Trump was still a real estate developer, when he built Trump Tower, and he expect[ed] that China in the future will be one of the biggest clients of his real estate business. So, he actually consult some kind of Feng Shui master, or to get the recommendations, how the layout and plans and interior designs of Trump Tower so that it doesn’t have some kind of unknown taboo in Feng Shui that would lose potential clients.
Willa Seidenberg 18:35
So have there been any cases where perhaps Chinese businesspeople said no to a building because they didn’t like the Feng Shui.
Haowen Yu 18:47
There’s one famous story in Hong Kong, that when modernism architect IM Pei, building the Bank of China Tower in Hong Kong, the shape of the tower, because its modernism architecture, a skyscraper, it has a lot of edges and mirrors in the facade of the building. That’s traditional, in Hong Kong was seen as a bad Feng Shui. The building that is immediately next to the Bank of China Tower, has started to make their own adjustments in Feng Shui towards the Bank of China Tower so that the bad Feng Shui would be canceled.
Willa Seidenberg 19:30
If you went into a Feng Shui store, what kinds of things would you see maybe besides a compass, as you talked about before, but what kinds of objects would you see in a store?
Haowen Yu 19:43
There’s two kinds of objects you would see in a Feng Shui store. Feng Shui compass was one of them. And there’s a shape of animals that was having specific meanings in Chinese history. There’s ancient Chinese coins that also have specific meanings in Chinese history. After Feng Shui gets internationally awared many of those objects has changed its appearance. So maybe today you walk into a Feng Shui store, the tools you see more would be crystals, crystal balls.
Willa Seidenberg 20:18
So interesting. Another example of how Fung Shui adapts and morphs as time goes on and depending on where it’s being practiced.
Haowen Yu 20:27
Yep.
Willa Seidenberg 20:29
So let’s look at some of the conclusions that you make in your thesis. You explore the notion of officially recognizing Feng Shui as cultural heritage. UNESCO, which is the international heritage organization, UNESCO lists other forms of heritage like acupuncture, which contain both tangible and intangible elements. What do you think about Feng Shui in this context?
Haowen Yu 21:00
Well, when I wrote the last part of my thesis, where I talked about the relationship between Feng Shui and other intangible cultural heritage, and the concept of intangible cultural heritage itself, I actually start with a question or a problem I’m concern[ed] with when we try to put Feng Shui into one of the categories of heritage, either its tangible cultural heritage, or intangible cultural heritage. But I think categorization of intangible cultural heritage, whether it’s UNESCO or in China, does not completely or comprehensively reflect the whole thing, the whole Feng Shui as ideology, as a way we see nature. Of course, if you asked me, do I support to enlist Feng Shui as an intangible cultural heritage, I will say yes, but I think there’s some limitation that comes to that. This separation of material and immaterial heritage was invented based on a very technical background. But Feng Shui, it’s both tangible and intangible. So, I think when we try to fit it into the category of intangible cultural heritage, it’s losing its complexity. I’m not really sure by enlisting it, its a comprehensive way to conserve it. Or a better way, is to just leave it as it is.
Willa Seidenberg. 22:38
So, because of its complexity, in being both tangible and intangible, makes it hard to identify it as one thing or the other.
Haowen Yu. 22:51
Partly, yes. Feng Shui itself has such a complex history. It doesn’t really fit the official discourse of the identity of China. So, it’s like something that is half good and half bad. If the government decided to conserve it, it might only want to conserve the good part of it but choose to ignore the rest of them. So that’s what I worry about the most in conserving Feng Shui as intangible or tangible heritage.
Willa Seidenberg 23:26
Do you think the fact that it is moving to other cultures, that that in a certain way protects it as a heritage practice? Or do you think that it dilutes it?
Haowen Yu 23:43|
I think it absolutely conserves it. Because while there are conflicts within the Feng Shui community that is between the fundamentalist and between the, I would say survivalist of Feng Shui practitioners. The fundamentalists, they insist that only the traditional Feng Shui or the Feng Shui in the Feng Shui classes should be the real Feng Shui, that where Feng Shui was reinvented or diluted in other cultures, let’s say in the States or in Europe, and translated back into China was not real Feng Shui anymore. But I think that’s an interesting part of heritage, and how heritage survives. And other interesting thing is that because how we define cultural heritage, especially intangible cultural heritage, that is something we’re really focused on is authenticity of the heritage. That is, what’s the real practice? What’s the real ritual? What’s the most authentic practice of the heritage? That’s part of the reason I think, why certain countries, especially countries like United States, Australia, New Zealand, those immigration countries, did not fully support the idea of intangible cultural heritage. But if we look at the history of how Feng Shui survives and transforms throughout different cultures, I think that’s a way that many different countries and cultures can show together, they make heritage what it is today. And that’s how they have their part of heritage.
Willa Seidenberg 25:37
So, Haowen, I just want to wrap up with asking you what you’re doing now and what’s next for you.
Haowen Yu 25:44
Currently, I am working for state-owned design institute to do some research on community planning, which is a new thing in China. But now I want to have more community engagement and involvement in the planning and design process. Even it’s still mostly controlled and managed by the government. But I still want to get more power to their communities.
Willa Seidenberg 26:13
That’s great. Well, congratulations. That sounds like a great position to have and a really good place to land after all your studies in the United States.
Haowen Yu 26:22
Yep.
Willa Seidenberg 26:23
Thank you so much.
Haowen Yu 26:25
Thank you, Willa.
Trudi Sandmeier 26:30
Thank you, Willa. And thank you Haowen for this really compelling conversation about a complex topic. And it’s just the tip of the iceberg. If you’d like to learn more about this and read Haowen’s thesis, which goes into great detail about all this, you should visit our episode page at SaveAs-place.
Cindy Olnick 26:48
I would actually recommend for listeners who would like more context on this, because we can’t get nearly as deep in this episode as we would like, if you’d like more you might want to read the book that Trudi co-edited a few years ago with fellow faculty member Vinayak Bharne. It’s called the Routledge Companion to Global Heritage Conservation and we will link to that in our show notes on our episode page at SaveAs- dot- place.
Trudi Sandmeier 27:15
Also, don’t forget to follow us on our new Instagram and Twitter feeds at saveasnextgen, all one word. This episode was produced by Willa Seidenberg with help from Cindy and me. Emily Kwok is our intern and doing a fantastic job on social media. Our theme music is by Steven Conley. Save As is a production of the Heritage Conservation Program in the School of Architecture at the University of Southern California.
