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Transcript for Season 2, Episode 8

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Cindy Olnick  0:00
Today on Save As…

Lorette Herman
We have these two buildings and they’re still here, and you know, if they can survive, then we can survive.

Cindy Olnick
Welcome to Save As, a podcast that glimpses the future of heritage conservation through the work of graduate students at the University of Southern California. I’m Cindy Olnick,

Trudi Sandmeier  0:25
And I’m Trudi Sandmeier. We are excited to welcome back our guest, Lindsay Mulcahy, who has been with us here on Save As before–

Cindy Olnick  0:35
Not just as a guest, Trudi, but she has been on the Save As dream team since day one. She has been along for the ride with us in many capacities. But we are delighted to have her as a returning guest, continuing the conversation about her research and work around the historic Alcoholism Center for Women. So if you haven’t, dear listener, already listened to the previous interview, we suggest that you do that–it’s season one, episode seven, called Sisterhood Is Beautiful. And it gives a great overview of this place and what it means to the community and Los Angeles and the people who live there and work there. 

Trudi Sandmeier  1:17  
You’ll hear in the episode today, you know, some of the voices of the people who really were part of its very beginnings. And so it’s really terrific to take that story one step further.

Cindy Olnick  1:28  
Yeah, we get a little more into some social issues that were happening around the time the ACW was formed in the ‘70s. We talk about connections–there’s a lot of connections here between health and the gay community and gay rights and the medicalization of substance use. It’s fascinating to me how these things sort of crossover and affect each other.

Trudi Sandmeier  1:56 
Well, let’s not give any more away. Let’s take a listen to Cindy and her conversation with Lindsay Mulcahy.

[music]

Cindy Olnick  2:07  
Welcome back to Save As, Lindsay!

Lindsay Mulcahy  2:09 
Thank you so much. So happy to be here.

Cindy Olnick  2:11  
We’re so glad to have you back. For the few people who don’t yet know who you are, please introduce yourself.

Lindsay Mulcahy  2:16 
My name is Lindsay Mulcahy and my pronouns are she/her. I’m a recent, very recent, graduate of USC’s Heritage Conservation Program and a dual Master’s in USC’s Urban Planning Program as well.

Cindy Olnick  2:27  
Great, and I believe congratulations are in order. You just finished your thesis, which we’re about to talk about. And you started working at the Los Angeles Conservancy, my former home away from home. 

Lindsay Mulcahy  2:39
Yeah, I’m so honored to be their new neighborhood outreach coordinator and continuing the work that I began at USC.

Cindy Olnick  2:47 
Your thesis is titled Conservation “On the Natch:” Maintenance and Remembrance at the Alcoholism Center for Women. And “on the natch” is a slang term for sober. Lindsay, set the stage for us: tell us about the Alcoholism Center for Women, you know, in 35 words or less.

Lindsay Mulcahy  3:04  
I’ll do my best. The Alcoholism Center for Women is one of the earliest women-centered alcoholism and drug rehabilitation programs in the United States. And it is located in two turn -of-the-century Tudor Revival mansions in the Pico-Union neighborhood. And I briefly contextualize the creation of these houses as part of L.A.’s oldest and wealthiest suburb and how the houses and the neighborhoods changed hands over the decades as they began to be filled with immigrants. And in the case of the Alcoholism Center for Women buildings, convalescent homes and sanitariums, through the greater part of the mid-20th century, before being the site and the home of this really incredible and groundbreaking organization.

Cindy Olnick  3:53 
I’m curious, why is one of the buildings called the Miracle House?

Lindsay Mulcahy  3:57
The Miracle House is the recovery house. So the two buildings, the one on the corner of 12th and Alvarado is the Admin Building, and it’s where groups are held and therapy is held. And that’s a really important and a really central place for the organization. But the Miracle House is where kind of the biggest transformation and some of the most difficult recovery occurs. Women stay there between six weeks and six months and are part of that intensive rehabilitation program, along with about 30 Other women at any given time.

Cindy Olnick  4:36  
Even though it’s still called the Alcoholism Center for Women, that name specifically isn’t really literal. I mean, it’s more inclusive than that, right?

Lindsay Mulcahy  4:45  
That’s right. There’s a lot that is held in that name “alcoholism.” And I talk a little bit about that in my thesis, about how over the decades, the language that we use to describe what’s now more commonly known as substance use disorder has really changed, as well as substances that people are using has shifted more towards drug use in the last number of decades.

Cindy Olnick  5:09
So going forward, you may hear us refer to this as ACW. And that’s just because I’m lazy and I don’t want to say the whole name. Alright, so this story connects so many dots, it makes my head spin. So let’s start in the late ’70s, with gay Los Angeles, substance use disorders, and their medicalization. So it seemed like those things were sort of, you know, coalescing to an extent, or at least, you know, rising up at the same time, what was going on there?

Lindsay Mulcahy  5:40
The most prominent story, when you think about the rise of the gay liberation movement, is Morris Kight and the first Pride Parade and people marching in the streets. And, and that is so symbolic and emblematic of the changes that are occurring. But one shift that I make in my thesis is this move from queer people and gay people taking up public space to taking over public institutions. And so there’s this connection, where organizers and activists realize that if we want to mobilize people, we have to make sure that their basic needs are being met. 

Cindy Olnick
Still true. 

Lindsay Mulcahy
Yeah, totally. And so in the early ’70s, you see the creation of the Gay Community Services Center, which is now that LGBT Center, which was the first drop-in social service organization for queer people in the United States. And it was shortly followed by a number of liberation houses, they were called, that were designed to meet the most basic needs–housing, food, economic security–as well as providing a community for people to really come into themselves. 

And this is a really direct response to a history of violence from the medical institution and other systems that pathologized women and queer people that have acted in non-normative ways, and over the course of the 20th century have attempted to, quote unquote “cure” people through drugs, psychiatric treatment, asylums, sometimes even forced lobotomies. And alcoholism itself, particularly as it manifested in women and queer people, was seen as a moral failure or a psychological condition. And so through the middle decades of the 20th century, there are these parallel and overlapping fights to recognize the humanity of queer people and women, not as diseased, and also to recognize the physiological element of addiction or substance use. 

And this all starts to coalesce in the late 1960s, when the American Medical Association and Psychiatric Association finally recognize the medical needs for people with substance use disorders, and that’s shortly followed in 1973, when these organizations remove homosexuality from the DSM and no longer consider it a disease. And so ACW is arriving right at the crest of this movement in 1974.

When they’re founded, they are born as one of the first treatment centers for women and queer people that recognize that alcoholism and substance use was an illness, but that gayness wasn’t, and so that in order to help people achieve recovery, they not only needed to address the physiological aspects of addiction, but also the sociological and cultural elements that lead people and make me people more vulnerable to addiction, largely the stigmatization and isolation that many people in the queer community were forced into because of homophobia throughout society. And so ACW both served as a rehab center, but also this intimate domestic environment that offered community connection and solidarity that could address the medical issues within the social and cultural framework that they were being produced.

Cindy Olnick  9:07  
One of the many things that struck me about your thesis was when you were writing about sort-of the origin story of the center and its founder Brenda Weathers, and you say that her search for queer community, largely organized around bars and clubs, exacerbated her growing dependence on alcohol.

Lindsay Mulcahy  9:27  
Yeah, absolutely. And Brenda was certainly not alone in this. A number of her contemporaries talk about this trap that they’re in where they’re looking for community and it’s in this place that is really difficult for people to maintain sobriety or just maintain their, their sense of self. And another co-founder of ACW, who wrote the initial grant, Lillene Fifield, writes the first report about the overwhelming issue of alcoholism among gay and lesbians and how it was maybe three times as high as in the general population, because of this combination of social stigma and lack of community support and isolation that creates this, this really difficult cycle to get out of.

Cindy Olnick  10:17  
You also connect what was happening both inside and outside these buildings in terms of women’s self determination, and claim to space.

Lindsay Mulcahy  10:27 
ACW was part of a pretty robust and tendrilled network of organizations around women’s liberation and women’s rights in the ’70s and ’80s. And like many other organizations, they had what were called rap groups, which are consciousness raising groups, and they worked in coalition, they worked with a number of groups to advocate for better conditions in prisons for lesbians who are incarcerated. They worked with the Women’s Building, they put on concerts to really drive home that there was so much to celebrate in their community. And it wasn’t just–yes, it was fighting back, but it was also fighting, fighting for each other and having a good time.

Cindy Olnick  11:10
And celebrating and it’s not all trauma. Yeah, right. You dedicate your thesis to the people of the ACW, you write, “conservation and recovery are lifelong pursuits.” And you also write about conservation being a transformative act. And its reciprocal nature, which is one of the many things I love about conservation, the fact that people in places affect each other. So how does that manifest at the ACW?

Lindsay Mulcahy  11:38
Yeah, this was one of the things that I was most taken with, because the way that the women of ACW, from its earliest days, put their physical labor into this building is an act of love. And, and it’s not for the buildings at first, it’s for this community that they want to create that exists nowhere for them. And then in turn, the buildings provide them shelter. And they also provide them an anchor from which to connect to their community, and a point of pride, and it becomes something that represents to the world who they are and what they’re capable of. And that women who have been on the streets, who have been mistreated in a number of ways, are worthy of a place that is beautiful that invites people in and makes you want to stay.

Cindy Olnick  12:31  
I love what Wanda Jewell said about this. She’s a former participant at ACW you spoke with:

Wanda Jewell  12:36 
We say these days that the remedy for addiction is connection. And ACW is like the mother house of that for women. And it’s home, you know, it’s home.

Cindy Olnick  12:45
So it’s not clinical. It’s not you know, it’s not like a hospital. And that really had a big effect on the treatment.

Lindsay Mulcahy  12:51  
Yeah, that typology is, is huge. And it shows up in other organizations of the era, like these liberation houses that were designed to provide people economic security and help them get connected. But it’s also more theoretically tied to what this really amazing author Stephen Vider, talks about as this transformation and reclamation of the American home, and all of the things that have traditionally been incredibly patriarchal, and white supremacist, and oppressive to many people, and how people can make their own families within a home and reconfigure what different rooms mean. There isn’t like a servant’s corridor anymore, you know, like that’s, that’s where therapy offices are. And there’s a centralization and a sense of unity that occurs in a space that had previously been incredibly hierarchical. 

Cindy Olnick  13:50  
You also write about how the women care for these buildings, and in return, the buildings care for the women. It really comes down to that word, care. You spoke with Lorette Herman, the ACW’s current executive director, who had this to say:

Lorette Herman 14:03  
I know for the ladies, for the residents, they feel when they come to this house, and it looks so nice, it makes them feel good. Like if we’re going to care about the house, we’re gonna care about them. 

Lindsay Mulcahy  14:15 
They have a long history of that. And it goes back to the founding days, but it’s also still very alive. And part of ACW model is bringing community together around the buildings and telling the histories through this intergenerational dialogue. So the latest effort to do that, which is also a fundraising campaign–so, another important form of preservation and maintenance–was for community members and past participants to buy bricks that then formed the path that leads up to the Miracle House where the residential program is. And so I got to see it on my most recent visit, and it felt really impactful to be walking along this path up to this building of recovery and to see these notes of encouragement every step of the way, and to see the people who came back and remember this place and all the different people that came through it.

Cindy Olnick  15:12  
So it’s not just names, you know, on the bricks, it’s like actual messages from people who have been there. And these women literally see that and walk on it every time they go in the building. That’s incredible. Is the fundraising campaign still ongoing?

Lindsay Mulcahy  15:26  
Yes, it’s still ongoing.

Cindy Olnick  15:27 
Do you think they might take money?

Lindsay Mulcahy  15:29 
I bet they would love it.

Cindy Olnick  15:31 
All right, you heard it here first, folks. We’re gonna put a link to the ACW website in the show notes.

Lindsay Mulcahy  15:38  
You too can be a part of history.

Cindy Olnick  15:41  
You actually cite one of my favorite people, Catherine Fleming Bruce, who’s the author of the-award winning book, The Sustainers: Being, Building, and Doing Good through Activism in the Sacred Spaces of Civil Rights, Human Rights, and Social Movements. She wins the award for longest book title, but it’s a great book. I love it! So what’s the connection there? How do you think of the women of ACW as sustainers?

Lindsay Mulcahy  16:05  
Yeah, I really love that framework, because it really clearly articulates something that a lot of professional preservationists are beginning to recognize and shift towards, which is looking at the people who have been putting in the maintenance, to preserve and extend the longevity of sites that are important to them, because they need them now. Because they provide housing or because they’re sites of community gathering and because they’re places where they can see themselves, and they can remember the struggles that they’ve been through and continue to, to fight them there. They’re really ongoing again, like, like preservation and conservation. It’s, it’s a perpetual tension and battle.

Cindy Olnick  16:50 
Never. Ends. Alright, let’s talk about your public history project regarding the ACW. How did it come about?

Lindsay Mulcahy  17:04 
Well, my whole thesis stems from this, I try and be really upfront throughout the thesis that none of the things that precede the last section, which is the public history section, would have been possible without the public history piece, because that’s where I met people who are currently involved in ACW, and who have shaped it. And so, as I was developing this process, I was working closely with ACW’s current director, Lorette Herman, to talk about what was important about ACW history for her, and who are the voices and who are the actors who could tell me what wasn’t in the archives. And so through her support, I conducted a number of oral histories. And then I also designed a workshop, which I conducted with three separate sets of participants in the Miracle House in the inpatient recovery program, as well as with staff and board members to share some of the research that I had conducted and bring these papers and ephemera out of the archives and into the hands of the people who carry on that legacy. And to hear in real time, what they made of those documents and of this history, and what that significance meant, in the context of their lives.

Cindy Olnick  18:20  
You also did like a workbook, right? Where they could, you know, create their own posters, because posters were a big thing with ACW, and do writing writing exercises and stuff.

Lindsay Mulcahy  18:29  
I wanted to figure out how to tap into a number of ways that people absorb knowledge and produce it. And so I knew that me speaking in front of a crowd was not the most effective way to do that for many people. And yes, we were able to generate some really lively discussions, in some instances, despite the fact that we were all wearing masks, and we were outside on a busy street in Pico-Union. But I wanted people to have time to sit and think about some of the things that we had talked about, and also interact with, again, these archival materials.

So ACW in the ’70s and ’80s had some really incredible posters talking about their programs. And so one of the activities in the workbook is for women to design their own posters. And then I had a number of reflective questions and ways for people to engage with the buildings as well as with their community. And so it really created a dialogue. And something that I think about a lot is how I can not only create new knowledge and bring new knowledge out of the archives, but also facilitate a generative process where people who know more and are more intimately connected with this place can do the same.

Cindy Olnick  19:47  
And it’s so great that you had the chance to do this when some of the key people are still with us, and you can have these conversations.

Lindsay Mulcahy  19:55  
Yeah, that was the most emotional and the part that has really reverberated with me is getting to meet people who 50 years ago were about my age, and who are driven by a lot of things that I’m driven by. And so to be able to come into contact with them and hear firsthand what they were thinking now, and then looking back on it from 2021, when I was conducting these interviews, was so fascinating. One of the most foundational interviews that I did was with Carolyn Weathers, the sister of founder Brenda Weathers and an early staff member at ACW:

Carolyn Weathers  20:34  
The spirit, and the camaraderie and the, you know, the pitching together and the goodwill, it started that way from day one, and it is still that way, and it’s building on it, that’s just remarkable to me. And the women who go there have this place that has been working for women for almost 50 years now, to go to, to fall back on. They don’t have to go get a grant and start it. It’s there.

Cindy Olnick  21:03 
You actually brought to these workshops, photos showing, you know, groups of women on the steps in the ’70s. In the ’80s. In the ’90s. You know, there’s always a picture of women smiling on the steps and you have one now of the staff members–they’re wearing masks, but you know, their eyes are smiling. And so it must have been really powerful for the current residents to see that–a little bit of themselves in this legacy.

Lindsay Mulcahy  21:31  
Absolutely. And to be able to locate it so tangibly, like they would turn around and point at them. And they’re 30 yards away, those same steps.

Cindy Olnick  21:40  
So not spending a lot of time in the halls of academia, I need you to explain this to me: you write, “My research is intertwined with the activities of ACW, not only to better my research, but to combat the extractive nature of academia.” So what’s, what’s that about?

Lindsay Mulcahy  21:55  
Oh, gosh, where to begin, right? Academia has a pretty sorry history of creating content that originates from and, in my case, what I’m most focused on, returns to the people for whom it’s important, lots of times, researchers in a number of fields, where the research isn’t providing a use for people. And, and that’s not to say that it could or that it couldn’t. But often it returns to its ivory tower, or its dusty thesis that never gets, never gets touched. And so I wanted to leave something, to create something and then leave behind something that was useful to people. And further the goals that they laid out. And that’s one of the reasons why I tried to work directly with ACW’s director to really guide this project.

Cindy Olnick  22:54  
Oh, that reminds me of a certain podcast that was begun a couple of years ago to take thesis work off the shelves, bring it to the universe. I’m all for that. So what did you hear from these women? Or what did you learn that surprised you, If anything?

Lindsay Mulcahy  23:13 
There were some small things that really demonstrated that I have a different lens than these women. For instance, in one group, the thing that got people the most excited were all of these pictures of people smoking inside or on the grounds, and they’re like, we’re not allowed to do that. And I thought, huh. But also just to hear this really, in some instances sensory, or tactile, or just experiential, of what it’s like to be in the house. I wasn’t able to go into the recovery house–or the Miracle House–because of COVID and safety requirements, and so I really relied on what they said. And there was one woman who talked about walking down these hallways into these ornate rooms with molding and fireplaces and mantels, and wondering who was there before her.

And so to be able to provide some of that information was so fruitful, I think, for both of us. And another thing that people really were drawn to was, again, this continual act of care and preservation. There were photos from the ’70s of people cleaning the windows and out front doing gardening and lawn work, and they would point and they would say, “That’s us,” because that’s what they do every Friday. One woman in particular talked about how important it was for her to have something to care for and how it helps her feel part of something larger. And I thought that that was just so emblematic of what generations of women at ACW have worked to do, and how that has allowed these future generations of women to connect to each other in this space.

Cindy Olnick  24:59 
That’s really it. When you can look at a photo or look at a set of steps and just say, That’s us, we belong, we deserve this. We’re part of something bigger. Do you have any tips for people doing a public history project like this? I mean, clearly, you faced a lot of constraints with the pandemic. But you know, any, any, I don’t know, words to the wise?

Lindsay Mulcahy  25:23  
I think there are certainly a lot of things that one can do to create a project that is ethical and generative for both the student or the researcher and the people who they’re collaborating with. And some of it too, is just up to time and personality and the magic of the universe. I met these people not actively seeking out this project, this thesis. I was interested in the site, and I connected with Lorette, and she said, “Do you know what we need? We need a public history project.” And I said, Oh, I can do that. So I think that the core elements, though, are always the same. It’s a lot of listening. It’s listening to what people have, and looking for, for their assets. And then it’s about looking for what people want, and what you can contribute. 

I tried to think about the skill set that the people at ACW, both staff and participants, had, and how that could align with the skills that I had, but also the resources that I had. I could go into the archives anytime I want and bring things out, and the platform at USC, Save As podcast, and say, here are the things that I can offer. And what sounds good to you, you know, what, what furthers the mission that you have? What research questions do you want answered? And how does that connect to the work that you do every day? And also, oh, gosh, that entails a lot of humility and I certainly made mistakes, you know, and you apologize, and you try and repair them and then you move forward. And letting go of expectations. I had a particular way that I thought that this was going to work out and then it didn’t. And so I said, Okay, we’re back to the drawing board. What do we want? And what different mediums can I use to connect and draw out these incredible stories that just deserve to shine?

Cindy Olnick  27:26  
Were they surprised that you wanted to know what they thought?

Lindsay Mulcahy  27:29  
Well, the women in the program weren’t necessarily always like, excited to see me. They’re like, Who are you?

Cindy Olnick  27:40 
Well, but you had been lurking around that place for a good couple of years. But I guess the residential schedules mean that people cycle out so you just didn’t, they didn’t happen to be the same people who saw you the whole time. Right?

Lindsay Mulcahy  27:53 
Yeah. So it took a while for people to warm up, and in some groups and some people, that happened more quickly than others. But I think that that’s part of the process. And that’s another, I don’t know, “best of” tips is patience, like it takes, it takes a lot of time for people to trust and for you to know what the heck you’re doing. And so yeah, that only comes through relationships and trial and error. 

Cindy Olnick  28:19  
It takes time. You know, the Pulitzer-winning journalist Robert Caro, when he was doing his book on Lyndon Johnson, he moved with his wife from New York to Hill Country in Texas where Lyndon Johnson grew up. And he stayed there for years. And over time, people slowly opened up and he got this information on Lyndon Johnson that nobody had ever gotten before. But not all of us have, you know, years, and a wife that would just pick up and move to Hill Country, Texas, from New York. 

Lindsay Mulcahy  28:48 
But another thing that brings up is that there’s empathy and that there’s shared interest and connection, too. So even though in my case, I’m very different in terms of, for most of the women, different race and class and education background, there was a lot too that we had in common. I have a long history of alcoholism in my family and people that I love. And I share some characteristics. I’m a woman, many of the people there are also queer women still, and we care about this place. And so trying to not deny that we’re different, being really open about that, but also saying, I see you in this way, and I want to hear more about what it’s like.

Cindy Olnick  29:33  
Alright, so what’s next? How public do you want this history to get?

Lindsay Mulcahy  29:38 
That’s a great question. I am excited to get a little time and space. It’s hard when you’re in the weeds to even know if you’re saying anything important or new or logical, but I think that there’s a lot that can be built on in the research that I conducted, the oral histories and the archival documentation that I collected, I think is ripe for some sort of digital exhibit, hopefully on ACW’s website. And also, yes, there’s a nomination out there, these buildings have been designated for their architectural significance. But as we know, there’s a wealth of other much more relevant reasons why ACW is important. So a potential amendment might be on the horizon as well.

Cindy Olnick  30:23  
Well, Lindsay, I have no doubt that not only does ACW have good things in store, but you have good days ahead of you, good years. And we look forward to having you back for a third time for a Where Are They Now? episode when you are ruling the world. 

Lindsay Mulcahy
Give me a couple of years.

Cindy Olnick
Starting the clock now. Thank you so much for coming back, for sharing this work. 

Lindsay Mulcahy  30:47  
Thank you so much, Cindy, it’s always such a pleasure to talk and make new information together.

[music]

Trudi Sandmeier  30:58  
Cindy, that was great. And I have to say that not only when I was working with Lindsay on her thesis, but all throughout this interview, there were just moments where the goosebumps rise on my arms, because it’s such an incredible story. And it’s really inspiring. And it’s just one of so many stories here in Los Angeles and all around the world where place really matters. 

Cindy Olnick  31:30  
Yeah. And it’s so great to know that so many people like Lindsay are going out into the world doing this kind of work. It really bodes well for the future of this field.

Trudi Sandmeier  31:38  
It does. And the ways in which we’ve moved so far beyond just conserving buildings. But this is about people’s lives, and about health, and about individual stories, and about all the things that are important to us out there in the world.

Cindy Olnick  31:55  
Yes, yes. And you know what would make the Alcoholism Center for Women really happy and help them move forward?

Trudi Sandmeier  32:03  
What’s that, Cindy?

Cindy Olnick  32:05  
If everybody listening today bought a brick! So you heard Lindsay talk about that great fundraising program they have, you can adopt a brick, you can put whatever you want on there, you can put your name, you can put an encouraging message, you can put–you might be able to put an emoji, you can help this place continue to do the great work they do right now. So we will link to the page where you can buy a brick from the episode page for this episode at saveas.place.